Sunday WatchAlong: Ponniyin Selvam 2! 7am Chicago Time!

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Happy Sunday! I was up late at a show last night, so I am being very cozy and sleepy and coffee this morning. While also SO READY to watch this movie!!!!

At 7am Chicago time, I will put up a “and PLAY” comment and we will all comment along from there. And I will try to provide as much background as I can, although this movie has a lot of stuff I haven’t read yet.

247 thoughts on “Sunday WatchAlong: Ponniyin Selvam 2! 7am Chicago Time!”

    • Pandyas were humiliated by Nandini-Aditha.

      Some historical context: You see, in South India, kings had bodyguards. All kings have bodyguards everywhere in the world, that’s no big deal. But the bodyguard regiments I am talking about were so strict and religious about their commitment. They had something called the senjoru kadam (debt of the red rice). When a king ascends the throne, he selects his bodyguards and they swear loyalty to him. They all eat the red rice (some say this was normal rice with bran and some say this is rice mixed with animal blood) and they pledge to kill for him and die when he loses his life. A king’s sons, wives, siblings, or even father or mother could cheat him but not these sworn companions of honour. In Ponniyin Selvan, there are two such regiments.

      Cholas had Velakkara Padai. Both Pazhuvettaraiyar brothers were the chiefs of Velakkara Padai who retired due to old age. When Chinna Pazhuvettaraiyar realised that his son in law is a Pandya prince, his daughter supports him and his elder brother declared that it was he who killed Aditha, he was fully willing to fulfill his oath by murdering everyone in his own family. In the book, Periya Pazhuvettaraiyar kills himself out of the guilt of getting manipulated and the prince dying under his watch.

      Pandya bodyguards Aapathudaivikal are the “villains” in the book. When Nandini heard that Aditha Karikalan was marching to her hut, she felt pity for old, dying Veera Pandyan and came up with a strategy. She thought she’d lie that Veera Pandyan is her lover (delirious Veera Pandyan was babbling about Nan being his wife, lover, wife, marrying her in the future) and plead to Aditha to spare him to die a natural death.

      Ravidadan, the leader of Aapathudaivikal, thought this was a great idea. Veera Pandyan would die if Aditha Karikalan attacks them or if they try to carry him away. But he might survive if he was spared then. Maybe they could treat him and heal him. Maybe. So he and his subordinates hid in a grove behind that hut. Aditha Karikalan who still had feelings for Nandini killed Veera Pandyan (the part shown in the movie).

      Aapathudaivikal couldn’t protect their king. Their king didn’t die in battlefield. And the worse of all, they couldn’t due with their king. In the beginning, it is a mystery. Later we see that Veera Pandyan’s only surviving son they have access to is a small child (aged up in the movie). The baby king can’t get bodyguards on his own and serve the red rice to them. Hence the earlier generation of aapathudaivikal must survive in humiliation.

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    • Well, the previous generation had a younger brother inherit from an older brother. Maybe everyone is sort of thinking that will happen again? Even though for now Vikram is the crown prince.

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      • Thank you both. That was what was confusing me. Vikram is called the crown prince but clearly Vikram is NUTS and the people see Arunmozhi as the real crown prince.

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        • Plus, Vikram made a nutty vow not to return to the capital while Aish is there, so he’s been off building his northern kingdom and fighting wars and no one has even seen him for years.

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          • Ah, but it is his first campaign! The book makes a big deal about that, Trisha and The People are missing him extra, and event he movie mentions it I think.

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          • Got it. I will have to watch these movies again and pay attention to all these details. For the first watch, I am just trying to follow the basic plot and characters.

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          • Remember that this is old times. No one has seen anyone in years because there is no newspaper, internet, books, etc. Those who live in the area where the kings or dignitaries go might see them, that’s it. But the king is renowned for for his divinely handsome looks and Arulmozi too has inherited some of it. So people have an idea about these two.

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  7. Okay, I need help on this conversation! I think itis revealing the REAL reason Aish and Vikram were separated as children, but it never comes right out nad says why Prakash Raj didn’t want them together.

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      • Prakash Raj thinks Vikram and Aish might be siblings hence he sends her away. Trisha asks him that. So it is clear, she knew her father was the reason for Aish being sent away.

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        • That’s what I got too! It just seemed way too shocking to imply incest and give Prakash this super nasty secret. I thought I might be reading too much into it.

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    • In the movies, the King sent her away because she was a priest’s daughter. She hasn’t developed into Aishwarya Rai yet. When she comes back as Aishwarya Rai, he recognises her as the doppelganger of his lover.

      In the books, the king has no idea about the high-school fights of his children and aunt. He thinks that his dead lover is haunting him as a ghost when he sees someone who looks like her. In fact he starts crying even when he sees her son who grew up as the son of Sembiyan Madevi. It also shows what kind of asshole was she. She isolated the boy so much that his “own” relatives didn’t know him well or spare a second thought to him when he went away.

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  8. So, Prakash recognized Aish as his girlfriend’s daughter, and was terrified Vikram had fallen in love with his own sister. Right? That’s what this reveal is saying without saying? Aish spent this whole time furious with the royal family for banishing her and mad at Vikram for not stopping it, and Vikram spent this whole time mad at Trisha for selfishly getting rid of Aish, but really it was Prakash Raj doing it to hide his sins and prevent incest.

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    • Additional thought, thanks to the Mahabharata we all know that paternity comes from it being your wife’s child. So even if Aish ISN’T necessarily Prakash Raj’s biological child, she’s still his child and Vikram’s sister since her mother was Prakash Raj’s first wife.

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    • Yes. It was clear to me in the dialogue and subtitles. Trisha clearly states Aish could be my sister and asks, is this the reason you sent her away from Vikram?

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  11. Finally, Vikram is thinking Big Picture. Anything is better than Civil War, and these old men are fools to think it is a solution. Of course, he’s making his argument in a super unstable way.

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  12. Vikram keeps saying this is his kingdom. So his thinking is more like this is his kingdom and he can choose not to rule and let his brother rule but no one else.

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    • Yes. Which also fits with the inheritance as established in this film. There’s a designated Crown Prince who is next in line to the king, and that isn’t necessarily the Oldest Son of the king. Vikram is crown prince, so he has all those rights no matter what inheritance rules say.

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  14. I wish we got a conclusion to their story! Boat girl realizing that the simple peace and love of Flower Seller is enough. Of course we can’t, because in the book the conclusion involves the whole “flower seller is secret prince” plot that they cut. In my head, I will make it the happy ending that she decides to lead a simple peaceful life.

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  17. So this is Little Brow to Aish’s husband. He’s been suspicious of Aish this whole time and doesn’t like the whole rebellion plot. But his first loyalty is to protect the king and the royal fort, so he just focuses on that and ignores all the politics. Now the threat is direct and he’s all “booyah, something striaght forward to do that doesn’t involve Aish!”

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  18. I am curious which god’s statute they showed with multiple heads here. At first I thought Bhrama since he’s shown with 4 heads and is the creater hence appropriate for Old Aish. But I am not sure.

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  19. Just caught another parelal. Vanathi is a fairly humble choice of the prince, but she clearly states she would be happy just being his wife, no need for the throne. Plus they moved slowly and went through proper steps and now his family is happy. If Vikram had been less impatient and improper, he and Aish could have presented their relationship a lot better. Of course, there was the incest thing they didn’t even know about. But still, just dragging her in and announcing “this is the next Empress”?

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    • At least Prakash Raj says he was exactly like Vikram and sees a lot of himself in Vikram. Which again makes me wonder if he was truly the right choice for king? Or maybe because he sees a lot of himself in Vikram he knows Arunmozhi should be the actual king? Although Prakash Raj never made that last part clear IMO.

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      • In the book they talk about how Prakash Raj was actually the younger son. He met Old Aish and decided to just peace out on his responsibilities because he thought he wasn’t gonna inherit. And then after a couple years, he was tracked down and told that he was suddenly next in line. He returned to the kingdom and felt the love of the people and the need for a clear line of succession and gave up his heart. Maybe that’s what he is hoping will happen with Vikram? He will someday wake up and realize he has to sacrifice his own wants for The People?

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        • Very helpful. Or maybe that is why he sees Arunmozhi as the next heir (even though he doesn’t say it). He wants Vikram to go back to Aish and have what he couldn’t have.

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    • Vanathi is too young and a bit timid to understand her own importance. She belongs to the extremely prestigious line of Irunkōvēl velir. They traced their origin to Dwaraka and were independent kings until Cholas defeated him around 800 years before the story. Later they became highly ranked vassals and had marital relationships with them.

      Now, we don’t know who was the historical mother of Rajaraja Chola’s heir Rajendra Cholan. We know that she was called Vanavan Mahadevi and Tribhuvana Mahadevi which aren’t personal names. She outlived her husband and was alive at least until the fourth year of her son’s reign because we have inscriptions about her donations. Her son would have been around 45 then and she must have been at least 60 when she died. Possibly lived to an older age and we just might not have relevant inscriptions.

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  20. This is so beautiful! Again, haven’t read this part of the books, but I am hoping the sense of the moment is the same, the lovers finally reunited only for her to die.

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    • I also think it continues the imagery that the women keep protecting and saving the stupid men in this movie. She protected/saved the king’s son and king himself. Trish does all she does to protect and save her brothers. Aish does it to protect her brother and because she couldn’t save her father figure.

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  22. Okay, I’m a little confused by time and order of events and geography, but I THINK I figured it out. the Young Prince’s army went to the fort where the king was thinking the Prince was dead and wanting vengeance. The prince, having just survived an assassination attempt, rushed home in secret to stop Civil War and arrived just in time. Meanwhile, Karthi was following the Pandyan rebels and headed for Aish’s fort where Vikram is visiting and has just worked out a partial truce with the rebels. And then some other old general dude (maybe the one with Vikram?) is on a boat and has captured sleazy boatman guy who was working with the Pandyans.

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  26. Oooooo, Karthi’s one big mistake! He blindly obeys Aish, thinking it’s still time for spying and secrets instead of action.

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    • And this is what is making me want to actually finish the books! Is it going to be an Epic Love Story, or is that just how Mani decided to play it in his movie?

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  29. IMPORTANT: Remember that Ravidasan and the assassins are watching this whole time. Aish knows that either she kills Vikram, or someone else kills him, he’s not getting out of this room alive.

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  33. Ooooo, is Aish trying to buy time? Because she knows Karthi is there, so there is at least SOME hope, if only Vikram will fight back, will believe she is evil.

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  34. Okay, was that Aish’s husband? The one who grabbed Karthi from behind? Did he suddenly appear out of no where and misunderstanding what was happening? Or was that one of the many other super old army dudes?

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    • Yes. Movie doesn’t have room for internal monologues but he is immensely perceptive. He has always known that Nandini has a lover and that’s why she refuses to sleep with him. In the last book, he realises that it is the prince. He wanted to hear their conversation. By this time, he has grown out of his obsession about her.

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  39. So Aish has been a pawn literally since before birth. And the one person who seemed disinterestedly kind to her was actually the one at fault for all that happened. Soooooooooooooo deep, and soooooooooooooooo sucky for her.

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  40. Why do they think Arunmozhi’s people killed Vikram? The friend thought Karthi was sent my Arunmozhi to kill Vikram? How did that misunderstood conclusion come about?

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    • Who stands to gain if the elder prince Aditha Karikalan dies? Even now, there are conspiracies that Utthama Cholan (Maduranthakan) or Kundavai+Rajaraja Cholan (Arulmozi) killed Aditha Karikalan though there are no historical reasons to believe so. We don’t know the actual dynamics between the real people so we can’t guess. For example, it is possible that historical Kundavai was closer to the elder brother not younger brother, she wasn’t as intelligent or resourceful as depicted in PS, Vanthiyathevan wasn’t the king’s bff, etc etc.

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  43. Okay, I think I understand this part. Dude in turban is the one Vikram (foolishly) did not behead at the opening. He has been stewing in resentment and allied with the other heir and his Shiva army to be a combined threat and force a peaceful resolution to the inheritance debate. Now Vikram’s other best friend, idiot from the beginning of the movie who was taken over by Aish in a few minutes, believes that Karthi killed Vikram on the orders of Younger Bro (now heir apparent) because he hates Karthi for long and also is an idiot. So he is allying with the enemies to take vengeance on Karthi and Younger Bro. Meanwhile, Other Heir is going “whoa whoa whoa, I don’t care about my wants if it means this is gonna turn into Civil War, I see the big picture here and that’s BAD”

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  44. That was Aish’s husband left at the old temple with her jewels by his body, yes? So he’s out of the movie in a very abrupt way!

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    • And in the end even her husband who she thought was the only one who loved her unconditionally also threw her under the bus. I hate men after this movie!

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    • Thats a huge deviation from the books. In the books, he is too old. He gets a filmy style heart attack when he sees the dead prince. Nandini thinks he almost died because he saw her committing infidelity. Husband is very perceptive (he is an old man with 8 other wives) and already knew about their relationship. His priorities changed by then, which very young Nandini didn’t recognise. So she tries to soothe him, lying that she will be with him in the next births.

      In an earlier part, the husband tries to make flirt with Nandini, telling that they were together in their previous births, which Nandini loathes. So Nandini knows that this whole “birth-rebirth connection” thing soothes his weak geriatric heart. Nandini would never ever accept any man other than Aditha Karikalan.

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      • Thanks! I read the books as well, but I didn’t fully understand them. Translation issues, and cultural issues, made it so I really struggle to follow everything. Your comments are super useful!

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        • Another funny thing is that Pazhuvettaraiyar declares that he is no Rama when he is questioned about his marriage. Nandini is compared to Sita who is held captive by Ravana. She doesn’t live inside Pazhuvettaraiyar’s palace because she doesn’t want to be alone with him.

          Vanthiyathevan meeting Nandini in the palace is supposed to invoke the image of Hanuman meeting Sita in Ravan’s gardens. Both Sita and Nandini are beautiful women seperated from their beloved, staying in a garden always crying, starving, with sleeping maids for company and their beloved’s “monkey” messenger meets them with a token of identification. Vanthiyathevan is from Vanar (literal meaning monkey) tribe and when Nandini tells him that he talks like a poet (kavi), he asks if she is teasing him as monkey (kapi). Later some heavy tree branches fall in this garden due to heavy rains and winds and the servants joke that their Sita Devi will be sad about its condition.

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        • Another allusion is linking Karikalan to Krishna. Vanthiyathevan sees a alot of Krishna imagery on his way but none of it is actually about it.

          He meets Nandini’s adopted bro Azhwarkadiyan on Andal’s birthday. Nandini is compared to Aandal, a poet saint who was so devoted to Krishna that she dissolved in him.

          He dreams about a goddess demanding “blood sacrifice” from a royal clan. But the scene changes to girls dancing before Krishna idol dancing to Andal’s poems, which is an allusion to Aditha, Nandini and his death.

          Then he goes to the capital and participates in dance drama about Krishna’s uncle Kamsa trying to kill him. Aditha’s uncle Madhuranthakan (his position is equivalent to that of a father figure but he is considerably younger) is conspiring against him.

          When he meets Nandini, he says that her Krishna is still waiting for her, to which she replies with great sorrow that she doesn’t deserve it.

          Kundavai’s friends sing and dance about Krishna, Krishna’s brother, sister and lover playing in their childhood, just like Nandini used to play with the three royal children.

          Kundavai catches Vanathi listening to sad poems and scold her for listening to such frivolous things. She asks if Krishna is playing and dancing with girls, how will he fulfill his duties. This is the same complaint she voices about Aditha.

          Vanthiyathevan goes to Lanka as Kundavai’s messenger and he doesn’t see such things later.

          Later we hear that Nandini decided that she would stay unmarried and wander as an ascetic because Aditha Karikalan didn’t come in search of her when she was expected to get married. She declared that she married Krishna like Andal and no suitor should bother her.

          As Aditha comes to Kadambur, Nandini starts talking about Krishna and intense longing for him again.

          There is one occasion in which Arulmozi is called baby Krishna, I think.

          The allusion to Krishna makes so much sense because Nandini refers to the “enchanter” aspect of Krishna. He who immerses you in sorrow and leaves you. His immanence and memories are with you but he isn’t. You can’t live with him, you can’t live without him.

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  47. Was it Aish’s husband who was on the boat and learned that assassins were after Vikram and rushed back? Or was that someone else?

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  48. My sister just got here to play with the toddler. Dog is barking, toddler is screeching, Husband is trying to make sure no one dies… this feels like the perfect background score for this war scene!

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  50. I just read a scene in the book where they fight with broadswords, and now I am sad we never get to see broadswords in this movie. I want the big heavy two handed things being spun in a circle around yoru head!

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