Fun fun! Emily and I started kicking this around yesterday, and I thought why not put it out for all of us to talk about?
Kabhi Alvida Na Kehna! Which wasn’t the movie Karan wanted it to be, or the movie Shahrukh wanted it to be (he was miserable while filming), and just generally only kind of works. And yet, there are so many ingredients there for a good movie!
Here are some things I am thinking about:
Rani: A simple fix for her character would have been to cast someone visibly older than Abhishek so we could feel her issues with seeing him as a little boy, not a man who could attract her. I also would have liked more exploration of her need for family, we know she is an orphan that Amitabh took in, and we know she has a close bond with Amitabh and wants a child with Abhishek, but I feel like we need more about how her fear of being alone is part of her. Oh, and Emily suggested also maybe building in professional fulfillment, what if she was a full time housewife and unhappy with it and Shahrukh encouraged her to go back to teaching? What else?
Shahrukh: Maybe a little more professional exploration for him as well? We see him move on to a full time coaching job, where did that come from? And was it having an affair with Rani which inspired him to apply, or was applying for that job part of finding himself again which lead to the affair? Obviously, also make him a better father. What else?
Preity: What if she was a high-powered lawyer or finance person instead of in fashion? Instead of dressing like a party girl and going to clubs, she dresses in power suits and goes to networking events? The first party still works perfectly, and the night at the Opera, we just move “Where’s the Party Tonight?” to another big fundraising fancy kind of thing instead of a club.
True Love: Emily is verilantly against True Love. As a plot device that is, not like she is forbidding her children from marrying for love. And she kind of convinced me! It’s just boring to have this affair come about because Rani and Shahrukh are Meant to Be. What do you think about dumping that whole concept? The reason we see them meet first 4 years earlier is to show how they are NOT in love at that point, Shahrukh is young and ambitious and caught up in his own life and Rani is nervous and hopeful and about to be married. And then Shahrukh’s big train station speech can be about asking how it can be that he could meet her and it was nothing and now he can’t stop thinking about her.
More Time With Original Couples: What do you think? See Shahrukh and Preity as the Power Couple they once were, working a room together, so we can better appreciate how lonely she feels now. See Rani and Abhishek when he proposed, and was all in love and excited and she was shy but happy at the thought of having a family.
What else would you change? Even if you don’t think it is a problem with the original film, what do you think might be interesting to explore in a redo of it? Change the location? Change the ending? Change the whole thing and make it a songless serious art film?
dontcallitbollywood 
Unusually I disagree with you. I think Karan was unhappy with the way the film was received and Shah Rukh was uncomfortable playing a good guy doing a bad thing. He is fine with being a bad guy doing bad things and making us care but not this. It wasn’t the adultery he couldnt get it was leaving his son. He said, “I cannot fathom doing that.” And it made no sense in the film. I also made no sense that Preity doesn’t let him see the son. I agree Preity should have been in a more obviously high powered job that once Shah Rukh can’t work grates even more. I think the flaws in their marriage were really really clear. Even when they were both successful they weren’t taking pleasure in each other’s success. That opening scene where he as just a won a big game and she has just gotten a big promotion and they are on the phone talking at cross purposes says it all. The problems in Abishek and Rani’s marriage are less clear. They could have worked the no children angle better. I think making Amitabh a flirt and a ladies man was unnecessary; it added nothing. Shah Rukh has also said in interviews that he doesn’t think the marriage with Rani will work out either. I’m not sure why he says that, but I think that last scene is very convincing.
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I think maybe the “no children” part in Rani and Abhishek’s marriage was confusing the issue a bit. I saw the big problem between them as not about her infertility, but about her lack of attraction towards him. Maybe making it that they didn’t have kids because they had put off planning for them, and it was because subconsciously they didn’t trust their bond because of their sexual issues. Either Abhishek not wanting kids because he didn’t want to settle down yet (but really because he thought if they kept trying harder and being young and exciting, he could attract Rani), or Rani not wanting kids because she “wasn’t ready” (but really because she just could not see Abhishek as the father of her children).
Hmm. I see Shahrukh’s point about leaving the son. But I also like the resolution of Preity forming a deeper bond with her child. In a version of the film where Shahrukh is a better father and his son actually benefits from having him around, I could see the title song playing out differently. We see Shahrukh set up a bedroom for his son as part of setting up his apartment, we see them spending time together along with Preity spending time with him, and we get the message of “their marriage was falling apart, they are better parents separately than they were together”. What do you think?
On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:06 AM dontcallitbollywood wrote:
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Certainly Shah Rukh would like that scenario better! Yes, I agree, that would make more sense.
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What do you think about cutting the fertility plot and coming at Rani and Abhishek’s marriage more directly related to the sexual issues?
On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:19 AM dontcallitbollywood wrote:
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‘that would make more sense.
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I didn’t think the marriage with Rani would work either so I’m glad SRK thought the same thing.
I had such a visceral hatred towards Rani in this movie. I really think SRK’s character would have gotten sick of her quickly in a routine relationship. The constant self-victimization and crocodile tears every 2 minutes… oh god. What a nightmare it would be living with someone like her.
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I’m pretty firm in this that I would not accept anything that is a happy ending for the cheaters together. I have my own personal biases – I don’t like the SRK/Rani pair first of all, it’s the BW version of the pairing you have to settle for when you can’t get the 1st choice. I can’t tell you how much I detested her acting in this movie. It’s right up there with how much I hated Anushka in Zero. The type of hatred where I don’t even want to watch their next movie. I remember that after KANK, every time a SRK movie got announced, I would pray hard that Rani doesn’t get cast opposite him and luckily for me, she never did.
The cheating part I also found unconvincing in certain ways. It was hard to buy the sexual attraction that would make two people get a hotel room, especially because they look really unhappy while doing it and Rani is crying like always. It’s like they’re being forced and doing it because they have to. Absurd. There has to be passion or joy there at least during the time being and the ramifications and guilt can come later. With the way it was done, it was like they were sad little victims, especially Rani with the usual annoying stream of tears. Oh the poor little cheaters. Spare me.
You’re doing a shitty thing and it’s okay to play the characters like shitty people who are getting a thrill. It would be more believable and easier to buy instead of desperately seeking empathy with the constant crying and looking like they’re attending a funeral. Simply put, people have affairs because they’re *fun.* It’s exciting having sex with a new person. It’s thrilling to sneak out and play games and keep dark secrets. It give a zest to life again. It isn’t morose and crushing like portrayed in this movie. That happens later when the spouses find out and life falls apart.
Justifying the cheating by making it seem like true love was also vomit-worthy. Maybe if Kajol played the role, there might have be a slight chance to pull that off but I suspect even with her, people would not have bought it or liked it. Why can’t they just be normal cheaters, tired of their lives, who get a thrill out of having an affair with the one person they are spending time with? And then once the marriages end, the affair ends too. Relationships are what you make of it and what efforts you put into it. A soulmate doesn’t drop from the sky to be your perfect partner and rescue you from your ordinary life, all while being horrible to others and it being okay because you cry a lot and feel bad about it.
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See, I think there is a version of the film that would be possible that agrees with your final point. In that both Shahrukh and Rani are trapped in marriages where there is no effort. Preity and Shahrukh just kind of took their relationship as it came, when it was good, it was good with no effort. Now that it is bad, neither of them is really trying to improve it. And Rani and Abhishek are even worse, a semi-arranged marriage where they were never really happy and they don’t even realize their could be more.
Rani and Shahrukh put in the time together, talked and listened and got to know each other, and then it became love, and then it became sex. Their marriages were all upside down, marriage and sex and then love will just happen somehow.
If Karan really wanted to tear down the Indian marriage system, he could show that the “affair” is the real relationship, the marriage is a facade we all pretend is happy. Neither Rani nor Shahrukh had love marriages. They weren’t forced marriages, but they also weren’t marriages that came up naturally as a progression of a relationship. Were they marriages at all then? In this case, are the usual rules flipped, the affair is the deep relationship because it came up out of need and connection while the marriage is the false one because it was merely convenient?
I don’t think that is the movie he made exactly, but that is a movie I would like to see someone attempt, to question the very idea of “marriage” if it only exists as a social construct, not a real relationship between two people.
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The only way Karan could have torn down the Indian marriage system through an affair is if he made a very small art movie. Nobody would have accepted the justification for cheating based on the marriage system being faulty. It would also have to be set amongst middle or working class people who don’t have a lot of options and get pushed along in life by what elders and society think.
With these characters, it’s impossible. These are rich people living in America, untethered to India or its conservative culture. They have picked wild professions like fashion and party planning and sports. Who is holding them down and forcing them to get arranged marriages?
SRK and Preity have a normal working marriage just like the majority of society. They are friends and found each other in college and got married and had successful lives. They may not be soulmates and sometimes work at cross purposes or get a little selfish but that is normal. Real love and relationships are not storybook romances where every piece fits perfectly.
Rani had a more traditional arranged marriage but unlike most people who go into arranged marriages, she never even tried to make it work. She was acting put upon and victimized from the very first day as if she was doing a great favor to Abhishek by agreeing to it. She was ungrateful, resistant and dismissive of him from the very beginning. If she had the confidence to do constant small rejections of him, she most certainly had it to do the big rejection at the outset and just said no to the marriage. Out of all the 4 people, it is Rani who is the most unlikeable and the only one who never tried to make it work and also had the nerve to feel put upon like she was the victim. Her passive aggressiveness was infuriating. The woman needed therapy, not an affair. She would have eventually made SRK’s life miserable too just like she did to Abhishek.
At the end, we see all the characters moving on to something purposeful except her. Abhishek gets over his bad marriage and finds someone who actually likes him and even reaches out to Rani. Preity fixes her relationship with her son and decides she isn’t interested in another marriage at least right now, SRK starts moving forward by accepting his losses and finds a new career. And Rani? Still crying crocodile tears.
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I really like Karan and admire what he tries to do with each film he directs. His choice to direct a film is so personal and wholly based on what he is currently feeling in life, so each ends up being such a hugh part of him. But I also feel like many times because it’s an emotional response, there is some weird fatal flaw in most of his films that takes away from the message. Like KKKG is supposed to be about loving your parents but it’s actually about parents respecting their children when the children’s choices differ from those of the parents. Same with ADHM. It’s suppose to push the whole idea of pyaar dosti hai (love is friendship) and that would have come across so much better if Anushka continued to be divorced but alive and still cared for Ranbir deeply and lovingly as a friend. Same with this movie. I agree with you that a way to fix this movie and display the message Karan wants to display is by showing that the marriage is the facade but the extra-marital relationship is as the true deep connection that two people grew into. But here the people having the affair are just annoying and shallow.
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Now you’ve got me thinking about the tagline, just like “It’s All About Loving Your Parents”. It’s “Never Say Good-Bye” right? Maybe the point Karan was going for was “you can love all these people in your life and you shouldn’t let them go”. Rani thought she had to marry Abhishek or lose her connection to his family. Abhishek thought the divorce meant he couldn’t see Rani again. Preity and Shahrukh, Kirron and Preity, all of these people thinking it is an absolute, you can have one thing or the other but not everything.
I don’t see Shahrukh and Rani as not loving their spouses, just not loving them as they should love a partner. Shahrukh and Preity were best friends, Rani and Abhishek were brother and sister. If they had been happy with that bond and waited to marry until they felt something deeper than that for someone else, this could have all been avoided. Instead we end back where we should have started, Preity and Shahrukh are friends and Rani is Abhishek’s family and vice versa. And then she and Shahrukh can come together cleanly. You don’t have to say good-bye to anyone in your life, just give them their proper place.
And completely agree with your overall point about Karan being too personal in his films!!!! In some ways I find SOTY his best movie, simply because he is carefully consciously impersonal. In the same way I think KHNH really worked well having Karan’s script through another director’s eyes. I can do the same thing when I am writing, I get all tangled up and then have to take a step back and think about what I really want to say. Often it isn’t what I started out with but something else I found along the way. When Karan is in complete control, he loses the thread a lot. If the point was “never say good-bye, never give up on anyone you loved”, he should have spent way more time on that and less time on complicated affair drama.
On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 3:17 PM dontcallitbollywood wrote:
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“Never Say Goodbye” is the translation of Kabhi Alvida Na Kehna. The tagline for this movie was “A Love…. That Broke All Relationships.” By which I think Karan was trying to show that SRK and Rani are the true love. I agree with you that SRK and Rani love their spouses but not how they are meant to. As you said SRK and Preity are friends and Abishek and Rani are sibling-esq. But if he is trying to show love that broke all relationships then he needed to change the script so that it shows that SRK and Rani were literally floating through life based on responsibilities and societal propriety without any real agency or happiness until they met each other.
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Ooo, I really like your last line!!!! And yes, I think that is exactly what he wanted to go for. Rani and SRK have relationships of obligation but no true bond, the affair is the one real thing in their life. Big flaw there is that Shahrukh is a father, even if his marriage is just going through the motions, he should love his son.
Maybe that’s why Karan wrote Shahrukh as being such an angry father? I think it was a mistake, but maybe the idea was to show that his love for his son was’t flowing naturally from his heart but was twisted by what he felt like he owed to the relationship?
Or maybe instead of Shahrukh being a stay at home Dad, he should have had a boring soul killing office job? He is trying to do what he is supposed to do as a “husband”, just as Rani is trying to be a mother and loving sex partner as a “wife”, but they both hate their roles?
On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 3:43 PM dontcallitbollywood wrote:
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Yes!! I like all the fixes!
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Also, completely agree with SOTY being his best movie. He said he did it when he was going through a mid-life crisis and just needed something frivolous with young attractive actors to help him feel young again and the movie accomplishes just that!
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Yes! If the measure of a film is “how well does it do what it set out to do?”, then Student of the Year is the winner by far.
On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 3:49 PM dontcallitbollywood wrote:
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The other piece that doesn’t work is that Shah Rukh is hit by the car which ruins his career, puts him in pain all the time and makes him mean, just after he meets Rani the first time. That fits nothing.
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Well, it’s high drama. But it’s mostly just stupid.
Now that I think about it, the character introductions are unbalanced. We only see Rani, initially, through Shahrukh’s eyes. We HAD to see her on her wedding day to understand that she never entered this marriage with a whole heart, it’s not that she and Abhishek have lost the spark but that they never had it. And we had to see Shahrukh and Preity together before the accident, and then the accident. But smooshing it all together, making Shahrukh and Rani meet on her wedding day and then him be hit right after, is just dumb. Especially since there are plenty of times in the rest of the movie that we see Rani separate from Shahrukh.
If instead they had just kept the apart and shown the moments that changed their life separately, it would have made a whole lot more sense. Rani talks to her picture of her parents about her doubts and convinces herself to get married anyway. Shahrukh is cocky and happy and not jealous of his wife’s success because he has his own, and then gets hit by a car. Fast-forward several years, they meet for the first time at the big party, while both are in the middle of massive obvious marriage fights, and decide to become friends and mutual support in solving their marriage issues. Skip the stupid Black Beast set-up (Preity and Abhishek can just both be networking at the same event and dragging their spouses along), skip the Magical Meeting, have them come together like normal people do, meeting at a party where they are drawn to each other.
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He had to get injured right after seeing Rani because that was the only way he would have ended up with her. It was his destiny. According to Johar, that is. He has bizarre ideas about a lot of things like how he thought Anushka had to die because she didn’t reciprocate Ranbir’s love in ADHM.
A happy successful SRK would have never gravitated towards Rani. It was the broken, unfulfilled and unhappy one (all ultimately related to his accident) that met his match in the also broken, unfulfilled and unhappy Rani. That’s also the reason why I think once SRK was able to get past his anger and really accept his injury and move forward in a different career, he would no longer have anything in common with Rani. Coming together in poor circumstances most of the time results in no longer knowing what to do once that phase is over. They didn’t even know who the other person really was when they weren’t depressed and moaning about their lives and bad marriages. It’s okay for a relationship to exist for only a finite amount of time. Soulmates who are together forever is really really pushing it with these two people as they were shown.
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Following Emily’s idea of dumping the “True Love”, in my imaginary movie I would make it more a story of “who knows what would have happened if he hadn’t been injured, but he was and the person he is now fits with Rani and not with Preity”. Don’t connect the initial injury to her at all on purpose, life changes things and the fragile bonds of an arranged marriage can’t survive such massive changes, while the natural understanding he and Rani built up together can accept his injury as part of their lives.
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Since we were just chatting on the other thread, going to link to my rewrite ideas:
And the recasting conversation started by Anonymous:
So many possibilities, because so many things are wrong! But you would have to start by figuring out what kind of story you’re telling, to your point about the central message. The plot and casting can go very different ways depending on the time and message.
My issue with One True Love in this film is just that it’s completely at odds with the rest of the story. Generally, I feel like screenwriters lean on love at first sight and fated to be together as a lazy substitute for real character development. This is a prime example of that, but worse than usual because it feels like a trope that wandered into the wrong film.
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Your last paragraph captures it perfectly. SRK and Rani are “soulmates” in order to justify the cheating story but there is nothing really built up in the characterization to warrant it. They seem like delusional fools convincing themselves they’ve found a love of the ages because they don’t want to feel bad for the things they’ve done. They act like they’re heading to a funeral when they go to their hotel room. If you’re *that* miserable, just go home or stop the fake pretense.
Imagine being the other woman/man and then constantly crying buckets of tears expecting the world to feel bad for *you.* I could tolerate SRK’s portrayal because he isn’t hung up on desperately proving what a good guy he is in spite of his disgusting actions. He’s alright being a douche and being seen as a douche. I think SRK (the actor) really disliked the character so he was intent on playing it that way. Rani (the actor), on the other hand, is trying way too hard to make her sympathetic and it becomes even more revolting as a result. She is infuriating. The poor put upon little thing that a handsome millionaire pressured to marry him. The tragic heroine of her own story who found her true soulmate in a married man boo hoo hoo so she had to cheat. The masochist who seems to revel in her own depression and misery and seems to enjoy it because it is her only real identity. What is this woman interested in other than moping around with a black cloud over her head? She has romanticized her own circumstances and loves being the tragic heroine that she seems to think of herself as. The reality is that she isn’t the tragic heroine she craves to be – she’s just a bitch who assented to marry a man that she had no intention of even trying to love and who jumps into bed with a married man at the first opportunity but still wants us to feel sorry for her because it’s ~true love~ and she cries a lot so please feel sad on her behalf.
Btw, at the time, there was a lot written that the story was based on Adi and Rani’s affair. Adi was also married to his childhood friend Payal. If that was true, I can see why Rani was hellbent on playing the character in that way. Sorry, nobody still likes what you did.
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Yes! I found the building of the SRK-Rani relationship perfect and organic in a way that is rare in Hindi film. For once it was a story that took it’s time to have them fall in love. Why mix it up with “meant to be” craziness?
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I loved this movie when it came out. Or perhaps i loved the idea of this movie. Especially in 2006 (?), having an all star cast make such a commercial yet dark and subversive movie about marriage and love was like putting a man on the moon in the 1960s.
Ideally they should have gone a little darker with this film, but in an honest way.
Sr B should have been visiting the red light districts for his meaningless sex. Or online chat sex or 1800 phone sex. It would better demonstrate a widower adrift who doesn’t know what to do with himself and with the rest of his life. The “sexy sam” stuff was just a comical and more palatable way of doing the same thing, but it wreaks of hypocrisy thus making it far more distasteful to me, so i prefer this honest darker seedier edit.
The biggest flaw IMO is that Rani & SRK are so obviously a Rebound or Transitional relationship that the happily ever after ending feels like nothing but fan service.
Sometimes KJo movie seems such a personal reflection of his own life and musings, and other times they play like a virgin attempting to write fiction about his first time – it is so clear that he has never been there.
If you wanted to tweak the movie as little as possible, the 4 years later reunion could start with a bang but end with a whimper. They play a Montage of 3-4 dates underscored by bitter sweet music, showing them talking and interacting, with each increasingly realizing that there is no there there now. This montage could even mirror the mid movie montage of their earlier dates together, thus demonstrating the contrast. They end with a hug of mutual understanding and part as well wishers.
If it were today, the movie might show them friend each other on Facebook over the end credits, but rarely interact except to like the occasional vacation photos or wish each other happy birthday because Facebook prompted them to do so.
And of course they would post congratulatory comments under each others eventually posted wedding photos… weddings to other people.
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Now this version I really really love. And we can get an end photo of SRK marrying Kajol and Rani likes the photo. The end.
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You are so cynical! The relationship still works for me, not the True Love part which Emily has convinced me just doesn’t fit, but the getting to know each other and feeling a bond part.
However, your suggestion makes me want to see a different movie that picks up where you end. A couple has an affair that wrecks their marriages. They are now single and try dating, it’s not the same, they decide to be just friends. They both start relationships with other people, not socially bounded restrictive relationships like their marriages but naturally occuring relationships with folks they actually like. Their new people know about their marriages that failed but not about the affair, because it is a bit of a shameful and embarrassing thing to admit. The two couples end up at the same resort or something. And then either the affair couple falls back in love, but different this time, not just the thrill and the sex but realizing they do truly like each other and enjoy spending time together better than with anyone else. Or, the secret of the affair causes issues in the new relationships in a farcical fashion, and it all makes the affair couple realize that there never was anything between them in the first place, now that they are in new solid relationships there is no temptation.
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Hmmm, I never thought of it as cynicism. I would argue that it’s beautiful and even romantic that Dev and Maya were there for each other at a time in their lives when they needed each other, when their marriages made no sense and their self actualization process was stalled, that they kick started each other over their hurdles. Not all meaningful, significant, life altering relationships are meant to be permanent ones, eh?
I might also argue that the memory/fantasy of this relationship is what had them stalled again four years later, whether that memory was conscious or subconscious. And in my scenario, meeting years later and over a series of dates, and realizing that their place in each other’s lives made more sense in the past, is also what helps propel each other forward to their next chapters. “Hope” is good unless it stalls you, and sometimes you need to let Hope die before you can move on. But that doesn’t mean I don’t support the relationship for the moment in their lives that it existed. I think society condemning all EM relationships as bad or wrong is incorrect, instead of looking at the sum totality of the situation and asking yourself “my god, how did I get here?”, in the words of Talking Heads :D. EM relationships are a symptom, not a disease. (Unless you are perennial cheater, then you are the disease.)
P.s. I like your different movie 🙂 I like your second ending better, mostly because it presents both more challenges and more opportunities to the script writer and the director. 🙂
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Yeah, I have this picture of the past-affair people locked in a hotel room together through circumstances, eating junk food and watching TV and clipping toe nails and having this moment of “oh yeah, 4 years ago we wouldn’t have been able to keep our hands off each other. And now, eh.”
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:07 PM dontcallitbollywood wrote:
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My favorite movie of all time, all your suggestions are wonderful,
I really wanted Karen to keep some of the deleted scenes, when Maya refused to meet Dave after thier night together, and when he try to talk to her on the dinner night and she refuse, It would have been better.
The problem with this film is that everyone looks at Dave and Maya as cheaters, In fact they are losers,
The two have ambitions and high abilities, and ended in failure in all areas, out of their will.
The reason people hate this movie is that they do not like to see themselves as cheaters or losers.
Maya’s problem is that she accebt to marry Rishi because of guilt, she owed him and his father, and she failed to find true love.
she could not love him after the marriage but if she had child with him, she would be happy and would not look at dev Twice.
Reishi`s problem he loves her and wants to marry her even when he knows that she does not love him back, he thinks his love is enough for her to be happy, but She always wants to escape from this marriage and Feeling guilty, asking him to take the decision that she so afraid to take.
Dev and may💖 they are meant to be together,
and they will live happily ever after, There is a scene when Dave feels a great pain and gives his bag to Maya as he laughs
She laughs too and take it. In the finale scene, the same act repeats , simply as if they had not been separated for three years, they fill save ,calmness, love together
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I really like your point about them being losers. I agree, we are supposed to see them as folks who have been left behind by life, never thought anyone would see them or care about them. Yes, Abhishek loves Rani, but he doesn’t really see her, he just sees her as he wants her to be. Shahrukh is increasingly avoided by everyone around him. It’s all there in that first song, Abhishek and Preity are dancing around having fun and leading the parade, and Shahrukh and Rani just don’t fit. But they fit with each other.
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:02 PM dontcallitbollywood wrote:
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Haven’t read all the comments but I couldn’t see Preity dating Arjun after he made a pass at her as a married woman. iMO Preity would not have dated a man that didn’t value her marriage vows. They got Abhishek to marry a white woman but Preity dating an Indian dude who was hitting on her. Stereotypical how Indian men are ok to find white wives but Indian women must stay with Indian men.
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