Another MeToo Post: A Challenge in Learning to Live With Multiple Truths

What do you think about this system I seem to have stumbled in to?  I can’t possibly cover every MeToo story, but it seems to work sort of okay if I start the discussion with one small aspect of one small story and everyone else can add links and discussion of other stories.  Does that work?  Maybe?  I’ll keep trying it until it seems to stop working.

Disclaimer: Like  the last post, this isn’t the most important story of the day or the most relevant or even the one I might care about the most.  It is just something that makes a nice small case study for us to look at together.

 

Today what I want to talk about is how not everyone sees the same things the same way, or remembers them the same way.  And that doesn’t mean one of them must be lying, that is just what is sometimes.  People see things through their own filters.

There are now 3 different accounts of what was happening on the Queen set.  And they could all be true.  3 different women working in 3 different areas who experienced things in 3 different ways.

It would be easy to simply pick one over the other, say the other two are completely absolutely wrong.  That is the easy answer.  But that’s not how the world works.

The better, harder answer is to realize they are all telling the truth, and that all of these things could be true simultaneously.  And that we, as humans living in a society, have to learn how to accept that, to accept that it is much more common for people to simply not have seen the same thing than for one person to be telling the truth and the other lying.

 

Kangana on her experiences during the shoot of Queen, bolded by me to highlight her specific stories of experiences, (link here: https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/bollywood/story/kangana-ranaut-on-vikas-bahl-he-d-bury-his-face-in-my-neck-and-hold-me-tight-1357594-2018-10-06)

Totally believe her. Even though Vikas was married back in 2014 when we were filming Queen, he bragged about having casual sex with a new partner every other day. I don’t judge people and their marriages but you can tell when addiction becomes sickness. He partied every night and shamed me for sleeping early and not being cool enough.

I often told him off. He was scared of me but still every time we met, socially greeted and hugged each other, he’d bury his face in my neck and hold me really tight and breathe in the smell of my hair. It took me great amount of strength and effort to pull myself out of his embrace. He’d say, ‘I love how you smell K’.

Image result for kangana queen vikas bahl

 

Nayani Dixit (link here: http://www.bollywoodhungama.com/news/bollywood/exclusive-queen-vikas-bahl-tried-sexually-harass-asked-share-room-nayani-dixit/)

Whatever the girl has accused Vikas Bahl is not at all wrong because he also tried his hand on me. I literally told him that ‘main tumhe maarungi if you do this again’. So I am sure he did the same with the girl in question as well….Next day, when I came on the sets, something went wrong with my hair. I didn’t get it as it’s not my area of concern. But Vikas blasted me and he behaved very weird with me. Now when I look back, I realized that why this behavior. Since he did not get a chance on me, he was taking revenge.”

They kept us in a 2-star hotel. When I said that I am not comfortable, Vikas told me that he can share his room with me. Look at his audacity!

We were shooting for the ‘London Thumakda’ song and in the crew, there was a 21-year-old local Delhi girl who was in the costume department. Vikas flirted even with her and she was very uncomfortable and she later confided to me that why this person is always behind me. Even Kangana Ranaut was witness to this drama and even she was taken aback. She remarked, ‘Tu pagal hai kya?’”

I did not say anything then. I was quiet at that time as firstly, I was alone. I did not know anyone neither from Phantom nor from the cast. Hence, I remained mum and decided to speak when the time is right. Now I thought that the time is right.

Phantom Films paid me peanuts. They haggled as if they are buying vegetables. And nobody out there talks properly. The production people used to talk to us so badly as if woh humein film de ke hum pe ehsaan kar rahe hai. They kept me in a vanity van which was a mere 6×6 cubicle. All the props of production make up and costume was kept there and also the chest in which all these things are stored. The make-up and hair guys were also inside this small space. They had no respect for me – nobody would ask if they can use my washroom. They’ll just knock, barge in, use the loo and leave. One day, when my hair-stylist was doing my hair, my hair got stuck in the blow dryer and she had to cut that chunk of the hair to get rid of it. Then once my hand accidentally touched the bulb, since there was no space, and I got burnt badly. I told them that I am burnt and need attention and medication. But just one production guy approached me, handed me a tube of Colgate toothpaste and asked me to apply it on the affected area. That’s it. No apologies offered! I requested them to give me a bigger vanity van but I was told that ‘yahan sab aise hi hai’ and that I have to adjust. Moreover, Vikas humiliated me in front of everyone the day I got burnt, as I had rejected his proposal. I used to go to my hotel room in Delhi and cry and was hoping that the shoot would get over soon.”

When I got fed up with the hotel room offered to me, I decided to shift to a friend’s place. But they didn’t even allow me to stay there as they had paid for the room! Yeh kya zabardasti hai? They even told me that they won’t pick me up from my friend’s place, which was just 2 kms away from the hotel, by the way….I witnessed production money being used for partying and boozing in the five-star hotels where they were staying.

The food offered was very spicy. The production guys would speak rudely to us when we complained. Moreover, we were told that if we asked for tea at night, we’d have to pay for it from our own pockets! Can you believe that?! They even forced us to travel by train from Mumbai to Delhi, citing that even our director is traveling by train. But I put my foot down and thankfully, we were given air tickets.

I had to cry to get my own payment. I got my final instalment 8 months after Queen released. It was a meagre Rs. 8000 and yet, I had to fight for it. Everytime I’d call, they’ll refuse on some pretext or other like producer bahar gaya hai, aaj woh bahar gaya hai etc. I didn’t attend the screening or premiere or the trailer launch of the film. I promised myself never to work with Vikas Bahl or Phantom Films. I have told about my experience to all my friends in FTII and I have warned them that if Phantom Films call you for a movie and if you charge ten rupees, then please ask for twenty rupees and only then would they offer you eight rupees!

[Vikramaditya Motwane} is the only guy whom I admire. He is just interested in his work and has nothing to do with anyone…I have not met [Anurag Kashyap] so I can’t comment.

[Vikas Bahl] has zero knowledge on filmmaking. By God’s grace, we had a great team, including his chief AD. She knew her work very well. It’s all her contribution and Vikas just took the credit and the National Award. Warna jisne Queen banaya, woh Shaandaar jaisi itni buri film kaise bana sakta hai.

Image result for kangana nayani dixit

 

Anonymous Costume Department Worker, Reached Out Directly to Bollywoodhungama After Reading Nayani’s Story (link here: http://www.bollywoodhungama.com/news/features/intern-sets-queen-dismisses-kanganas-allegations-vikas-bahl/)

So, you say you are the 21 year old girl who worked in the Costumes department in Queen who was allegedly sexually abused by Vikas Bahl as stated by Nayani Dixit in her interview. Are you confirming whatever was stated by Nayani? 
Whatever she has said here is not at all true. What she has mentioned about costume department and girl confiding in her is not at all true because Vikas has personally been always very cordial. He was very professional. So he never flirted or something like that. We all are good friends and this is the kind of thing people are saying is completely wrong and I mean I am quite shocked. There is clearly mentioned in the article that Nayani is saying that 21 year Costume department girl confided in her or something which is a complete lie.

So who’s that 21 year old girl?
Yeah I was in a costume department, it was me.

Alright and what’s your name?
I don’t want my name to be mentioned in this thing, I don’t want to get involved in that form or something.

So you are saying that nothing of this sort had happened and Vikas Bahl was absolutely cordial with you.
Nothing. I mean I am shocked to read this. He has always been so cordial and he helped us many times professionally so you know we had actually come on internship basis for this movie from our college. We lived in Delhi so we were there we would be handling and nothing of this sort happened. I mean the way she has mentioned in the article, nothing of that sort happened and not even once has he misbehaved or tried to flirt or something like he has always been like a mentor. He has always guided us and not even once has he done something like this.

And how long did you have the interaction with her?
So Nayani was there for only 2-3 months, the time which we shot in DelhiQueen was shot in Paris also and Nayani wasn’t present there but the part which was shot in Delhi, the 2 months part shot in Delhi which she is mentioning about, for entire Delhi part we were there. I was handling Kangna‘s costume as well. And you know it is mentioned in that but nothing of this sort has happened, he never flirted, he never misbehaved. Nothing of this sort ever happened.

Nayani has said that people would come in her room and use the loo…
I don’t know about her accommodation. That I have no idea but you know when it comes to sets, I don’t know if something like that happened when I was not present but whenever I was present I haven’t seen a situation like this that because apparently you know in the whole movie set it was very easy to approach Vikas and talk to him about any of these kind of things and you know I haven’t seen him yelling at someone or mentioning that we didn’t get food or food was spicy or something rather I would say that food was really good. And then you know what he was present there and shooting and we were comfortable there and I didn’t see even once anything like this happening, I mean, you know when I read about this article I was just like you know it was biased or something like that and you know she has very well mentioned in that the girl confided in her, this is like such a lie you know. She can say anything about herself but why she is saying anything about anyone else which is not even true?

Alright, so do you feel because the fact is that since Vikas Bahl is now already in the dock due to allegations so it’s rather easy for anybody to gain publicity, that’s what you feel ?
Yes it’s a fact. It’s true. Basically I did want to talk about this because it’s clearly mentioned and you can check it out that it was about costume people and it was me.

Since you have the integrity to just call up and mention all of this, I think you should mention your name. 
See the only point is I don’t want my name coming in article because I am married and settled abroad…

Okay, so how many other films you worked on?
I have worked on three films and a couple of shows. I have done a lot of freelancing ads and all that as well.

Okay so you know what suddenly happening is that after this entire Tanushree Dutt matter and the way it has no-balled and even the Vikas Bahl matter the way it was no-balled what is happening is that everybody is thinking that film industry is not a safe place for women and so many men lurking around, what is your personal opinion? Do you think that, have you encountered any predatory man, as you said you live in Delhi and you were working here?
No, not really. Nothing of this sort I mean you know, think something happening on the set or something you know people outlook or whatever the situation is happening, I just wanted to talk about this particular article and not anything else. I just want to mention and clarify the whole fact that I have not seen… I mean he is a good person; he is a very good person. I have always respected him and he has always given respect to me, you know and to rest of the girls also. I think he has never misbehaved, I didn’t see him yelling and never something of this sort like flirting, you know I just think how can people make such story or put wrong allegations on someone which is really wrong. I am like, genuinely respect the person because he has so much knowledge about everything and he is such a respectable and he has always been so decent to us and nothing of this sort has happened so you know, that’s all what I wanted to talk about. And about set and all, I think its fine. It’s all about how you conduct yourself and how you take care of yourself, that’s all it is about…

So now Kangna has also issued a statement that Vikas tried to act fresh with her and physically come close to her. Since you were on the sets, did you at any point see any unprofessional behaviour?
No. I didn’t actually. I mean I haven’t seen him doing anything of this sort because I was handling Kangna’s costumes so I didn’t see any kind of these things happening, not at all. And you that shows whole process is very different. Kangna and all would come on sets later on like you know early in the morning these guys would go and Vikas would also go at 6 O’ clock to set up everything on the sets. I would go with Kangna because I was handling her costumes and she would come later at the night and then we would shoot on the sets. So everyone was present there and nothing of that sort happened. I didn’t see anything of this sort. And you know I also want to just mention that I am such a good friend of Vikas and not only me my husband is also such a good friend of Vikas. So imagine such things, I mean he flirting and all are baseless rumours.

Vikas has completely gone into a shell so he is not speaking to anyone, he has not presented his side of the story so how do you look at this, and how do you think Vikas should be dealing with something like this?
Sorry, no comments on that.

Image result for queen india poster

(1 movie, 3 months, 3 perspectives)

 

So, what do we have here?  We have the lead actress who worked closely with Vikas and stayed at the same 5 star hotel as he did.  We have a supporting actress who had a miserable experience dealing with all kinds of production issues and no respect or concern from Vikas about them, along with disrespect of her person.  And we have a very very young woman on her first film set working with the crew who only saw Vikas in work situations and found him kind and respectful and professional.

All of these versions of Vikas can easily be true.  The man you are for a powerful actress you are collaborating with and the man you are for the 21 year old who worships you could be very different.  And the expectations of a local Delhi student working on her first film and an FTII grad working her 3rd film are very different.  What looks like uncomfortable attention to one can look like kind mentoring to the other, just like spicy unedible food for one can be good food for the other.

Even the original incident described (and I sympathize with the anonymous woman’s anger at feeling like her life was misrepresented) could be true from both sides.  Perhaps she felt a moment of discomfort that passed so quickly she does not remember saying anything about it to someone.  Perhaps she said something that Nayani interpreted as a complaint because of her own experiences but was not intended that way.

And that’s okay.  That’s something we, reading these stories, have to just accept.  That someone can be an angel to one person and a devil to another.  And it doesn’t mean the first person is lying or the second is exaggerating.  Even something as contained as a 2 month film shoot can contain worlds within worlds, societies within societies, and you can become a different person as you move between them.

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27 thoughts on “Another MeToo Post: A Challenge in Learning to Live With Multiple Truths

  1. My head is spinning reading this. i wonder if news like this wouldn’t dilute the movement. contradictory statements. The case of harassment is ofcourse serious but working conditions on a film set varies right? Spicy food for eg? Ummm I’m so conflicted after reading this account. Also Kangana recently again accused Hrithik of having an affair with her as a part of me too movement. Kangana is enjoying this, isn’t she *facepalm*

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    • Kangana Hrithik link: https://www.hindustantimes.com/bollywood/kangana-ranaut-attacks-hrithik-roshan-says-punish-those-who-keep-young-women-as-mistresses/story-S9nlZYraJ262DV5TWGhZSM.html

      I’m really frustrated with her, trying to put a married man who has a girlfriend and promised marriage to her on the same level as rapists. It’s not a good look for a married man, but it is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from what the other women are talking about. And gets into some questionable areas in terms of consent, if a woman consented to a relationship based on lies, can she later say it was non-consensual even at the time she clearly gave consent? Retroactive lack of consent?

      That’s the problem, that’s why I want each story to be looked at individually. Kangana’s story in NO WAY should be considered as taking away from Vinta Nanda’s story (for instance) (link here: https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/bollywood/vinta-nanda-thanks-supporters-metoo-movement-5396792/) But if you put them together and try to list Hrithik and Alok Nath in the same breath, then it gets diluted.

      And for this group of statements, as I said, I believe them all. And I guess the public will just have to learn to live with statements that seemingly conflict all being true.

      On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 8:53 AM dontcallitbollywood wrote:

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      • You are right (also re-reading my original comment, Its so disjointed its a wonder you got what I wrote). You are right about contradictory statements all being true or in the gray area, there could be threats and blackmails and just a fear of family shaming or victim blaming involved.

        As with Kangana, whole country knew HR was married, so she didn’t ? Blaming him for his mistakes is fine but an affair is not equal rape or harassment. She’s being ridiculous again. Somebody had compiled a tweet of lies and contradictory statements by Kangana.

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        • It’s also interesting to think about the dangers of speaking for someone else. Nayani could talk about what she experienced and what it felt like for her. But she had no right to tell someone else’s story, because she couldn’t really know their story.

          Thanks for the twitter link! She is clearly a Hrithik fan and not hiding it, which I respect, but she also really did the work and dug into Kangana’s stories on a whole variety of issues from her family background to her religious hypocrisy (the way she defending the cow lynchings was chilling) to even Paris Hilton!

          On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 9:45 AM dontcallitbollywood wrote:

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          • You are right, speaking up for someone else is dicey plus I’m not sure if it’s right to do so without proper consent.
            Ah yes she is a fan, its funny how I was a fan of the both of them too. However, some of the lies that really bothered me were the ones I heard from one interview to the next. Varying accounts as per the situation. The cow lynchings comment was the final straw for me, I totally couldn’t support her anymore.
            It just bothers me that people are coming up with serious cases of harassment and here she’s just passing comments on it because she can. The other day I heard her praise Vikas Bahl and now this.

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          • Just so anyone else reading these comments has context for our conflicted feelings about Kangana speaking publicly about social issues (you reminded me that I shouldn’t be speaking for others either!) here are some of Kangana’s quotes about religion and cow worship in India:

            “If a certain religion worships cows, you can’t slaughter cows. I am vegan and I can’t see raw meat. I can’t be shamed for my choices. If it’s a sentimental thing, why instigate people?”

            “The truth is majorities run the risk of being wiped out by the minority-friendly governments”

            (link: https://www.thequint.com/entertainment/celebrities/kangana-ranaut-defends-her-chat-with-sadhguru-on-liberals-gau-raksha )

            This was after a case of a man being dragged from his home and killed because of a rumor that he had killed a cow. I guess he “instigated” the majority who is so terrified of being wiped out that they must defend themselves.

            On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 10:16 AM dontcallitbollywood wrote:

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    • Except I think the point of Rashomon was that they were all consciously lying to make themselves look better. Whereas in this case I don’t think they are lying, I think they just saw things a different way.

      On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 9:07 AM dontcallitbollywood wrote:

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    • Thanks for the link! As Angie and I said, totally unsurprised about Sajid Khan.

      I really like her point at the end that it is always “oh, she must have slept her way to the top” not “oh, that director/producer must be a terrible person”. That’s something I’ve run across in the internet and always surprises me, I think I posted an answer on quora that somehow dealt with it and some of the comments were surprise that I, a woman, wasn’t angrier at women who “cheated” by sleeping their way into the industry.

      I was also interested in her stories about Sajid how, if I am understanding correctly, everything happened when they were alone together. And when he (probably) abused another woman who was trying to audition, he sent her out of the room. But on the other hand when she shared some of her stories, the response was “oh yeah, everyone knows that about Sajid”. It feels like the flip side of what Imraan described in his post (link: https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/bollywood/imran-khan-on-me-too-movement-bollywood-vikas-bahl-5394015/), you would see things and kind of know things, but it was always just on the edge of giving you plausible deniability, of making it okay to pretend you didn’t know. So you have these predators who make woman audition in scanty clothing, who say disgusting things about them, but don’t actually reveal that they are raping women, who keep the extreme sexual abuse under wraps. The same with Alok Nath, everyone knew he was feeling up his co-stars onset, but the actual rape was done in secret and covered up (link: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tv/news/hindi/alok-nath-had-admitted-of-groping-navneet-nishan-reveals-a-former-co-star/articleshow/66151038.cms).

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      • And that’s exactly why this public naming & calling out is a punch in the gut for these creeps.They are now forced to look into the mirror. Those who have been looking the other way, also have to stop pretending now.

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        • I am more interested in the ones who have been looking the other way. I think (hope) that there are far more of them, people who are themselves innocent of any direct wrongdoing but just kept forcing themselves to deny what was happening, pretend that it was only a few lewd remarks, that nothing really bad was happening.

          Oh, and also, she included domestic violence in her stories! Yaaaaay! My hope that India will move forward and do one better than the American #MeToo remains alive!

          On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 12:15 PM dontcallitbollywood wrote:

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  2. I believe it’s possible that 3 people see some situations differently, but in this case, I don’t believe the wardrobe girl at all. Her answers are always the same and messy, she continues with all the same thing. It wasn’t surprise when she said: my husband is also such a good friend of Vikas. I knew there must be something. I don’t know if Vikas molested her, but for sure she isn’t saying all the true, in my opinion.

    From other news: not only his assistant but a journalist too accused Sajid Khan of harasment
    https://www.timesnownews.com/entertainment/news/bollywood-news/article/sajid-khan-accused-of-sexual-harassment-by-journalist-he-forced-his-tongue-down-my-throat-bollywood-news/298013

    Don’t know you all but I’m not surprise . I would bet my money his name will come out .

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    • Yep, I had the same reaction about Sajid. His relationship (rumored) with Jacqueline always smelled funny to me. I wonder if it will stop Farah from speaking out? I don’t think it should, she isn’t her brother’s keeper (literally), if she wants to come out and say “I support the victims, this is terrible, I will work to make it better, this is my own story”, then she should. It’s such an odd complication of the incestuous nature of the industry, the people who might be the strongest voices are literally related to the people who might be the worst. Heck, Farhan is Sajid’s cousin! And he is the head of MARD. And Honey Irani was a victim of abuse, and she is Sajid’s aunt (link here: https://www.deccanchronicle.com/entertainment/bollywood/230318/daisy-irani-raped-age-6-hit-belt-threatened-to-kill-farhan-farah-aunt.html )

      The thing I was thinking of with the costume assistant was that it could be a face-saving measure, her husband and in-laws know she must have been the person referred to, and she decided to present a softened version of the story in order to prevent them from blaming her for something. Which is a big big reason that Nayaki SHOULD NOT have told someone else’s story, she didn’t know how what situation that person was in now, what trouble she might get her into by revealing this.

      On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 11:22 AM dontcallitbollywood wrote:

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      • I finished reading Saloni Chopra post and I feel like throwing up. Such a disgusting person Sajid Khan is. I wish we could take his movies, make giant bonfire and burn it all.

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        • I think in my post on Ali Zafar I talked about how some predators, you can see the sickness in what they make. Definitely the case with Sajid Khan, I would have no problem burning all his films because they all have that kind of a taint to them. Women treated as less than human in one way or another. The one partial exception being Heyy Babyy, which was also the film that I think he probably had the least control over since it was his first one.

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    • Ha! Not surprised he answered poorly though, he’s not always good when thrown a curve ball.

      On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 1:04 PM dontcallitbollywood wrote:

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    • Interesting! I was just thinking about two things he pointed to. first that, no duh, everyone knows. I mean, I know, and I don’t even work in the industry. It’s not just the stars that are complicit, it’s the media and even the public. What did we think was going on when Dev Anand introduced young actress after actress for 40 years (that’s who leaped to mind for me immediately from what Imraan said)? Not to mention Rajesh Khanna, who married a pregnant 15 year old, what did we all think was happening there? Now it is bad because the way of talking about it has been reframed, but we all knew the details all these years. Why did we think the Kapoors didn’t want their daughter’s acting? Why did we think the families of the actresses are so rabidly protective? What about Luck By Chance, Once Upon a Time in Mumbaii, and loads of other films that talk about actresses being passed around as just a plain fact? About Salman basically only casting his girlfriends in his movies? Or actresses who look just like his girlfriends?

      The other thing is, reading between the lines, he talks about how he was/is somewhat protected because of his family connections. And how an outsider actress has no other option. Which means the insider actresses, I suspect, escape all of this. Odd way for the industry to heal itself, but I suppose as increasingly only respectable born into it actresses are being cast it means they don’t have to sleep with the stars. I doubt Sonakshi had to sleep with Salman to get Dabangg, or Sonam with anyone ever.

      On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 8:21 PM dontcallitbollywood wrote:

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      • This quote really got to me:

        But imagine the position of the woman who has been a victim who does not have the kind of backing that I have. I come from a film family, I have a lot more support around me. Imagine you have none of these things and if you are a woman who has been attacked, molested or raped, your career is over your life is over. You are trying to get justice and the world is turning on you. I cannot stomach that. I have far fewer things to lose, the least I can do is stand up and say look I will stand with you.

        Also this:

        …those actresses whom I have worked with or the victims who have been harassed, if they chose to recognise themselves as it is their story to tell and if they can out themselves and name the people whom I am talking about then I will stand by them. That is the very least I owe them. I will say that look I was there and if you ever speak up please know that I am on your side and I will support you.

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        • Yep, it really is the perfect thing to say. It’s not his story to tell, he can’t name names without by implication revealing victims.

          I also liked the reveal that he is off all social media, so what does he care what people think? He doesn’t even know what they think. It’s so true, there are other issues that would get you protesters on your front lawn or something you can’t ignore, but this? He can just stay off the net and it doesn’t matter.

          On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 10:41 PM dontcallitbollywood wrote:

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    • I don’t know, I’m not convinced. I’m not convinced he didn’t know either. But one thing I am noticing in these stories, more than I would have expected, is that this behavior WASN’T actually expected or accepted. The Luv Ranjan story that just came out today ( https://www.mid-day.com/articles/luv-ranjan-asked-me-to-strip-during-my-first-look-test-actor-accuses-pyaar-ka-punchnama-director/19884165) includes a comment that her manager was shocked, she was shocked, she had been on many auditions before and never experienced anything like this, even done two films before. So, yay? That it may feel like “everyone does it” but that isn’t the case, this behavior is an anomaly.

      There’s also the way the victims were isolated, convinced that no one would believe them or understand, so I’m not sure if the real true full stories were known until now, if they never felt comfortable telling the other people involved in the films.

      I assume Akshay knew Sajid was a creep, he must have. But maybe he thought he was a run of the mill, keep sexy photos from auditions on his laptop, kind of creep. Which puts Akshay on the “well yeah I always kind of figured he knew about and accepted this sort of behavior” list for me, but not on the “complicit in a sexual assault” list.

      You’ve seen those conversations between men, right? Where they sort of throw out a dirty joke or a sexy photo and if you react like you aren’t interested, they back off, but if you react correctly, they might reveal more? So far, I am getting the feeling that actual sexual assault was on the “I’m not ashamed of it, but maybe I test the waters a bit before I tell absolutely everybody that I am doing it” level. While giving a part in a film in return for voluntary sexual favors, taking sexy audition photos, and so on and so on was the sort of thing everyone knew about.

      On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 10:31 AM dontcallitbollywood wrote:

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      • This reminds me of a policing theory which is that the majority of crimes are committed by a small group of people, and that the same group is committing crimes ranging from jumping a turnstile to full on armed robbery.

        So people knew that these guys were gross and creepy (jumping turnstiles level) but they didn’t try to stop it and they weren’t looking to see if it went beyond that behind the scenes (the way Imran has described). Still not good but redeemable if they take a stand now.

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        • Yeah, that’s my feeling about it as well, the “jumping turnstiles” stuff was visible and everyone knew about it. The “jumping a turnstile in order to stab someone” stuff was not visible. And then the other problem, if someone comes forward and says “so-and-so did something bad in the subway” everyone goes “yes, I know, that’s just his way” meaning “yes, I know, he jumps turnstiles” and the other person thinks “okay, I guess it’s normal for people to be stabbed and I won’t say anything more about it”. Especially if the stabber is telling them that’s how the world is and they shouldn’t even bother trying to tell their story because no one will care.

          For the policing theory, that reminds me of something my Dad used to talk about, he’s a lawyer and he talked about the large number of cases solved at traffic stops for speeding. Somehow once you have broken one law, it becomes much easier to break the others, and catching the person who is breaking the little visible law often means you end up discovering they did something much much worse. Possibly a new way of looking at sexual harassment? Look for the person with no shame about asking sexual questions in job interviews and find the secret rapist?

          On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 11:23 AM dontcallitbollywood wrote:

          >

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